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My guest for Episode #515 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Jim Morgan, senior advisor at Lean Enterprise Institute and a board member at Adrian Steel. Jim’s most recent industry experience was as Chief Operating Officer at Rivian, an electric vehicle manufacturer.
He was previously a guest in Episode 109 back in 2011.
Before joining Rivian, Jim spent a little over ten years at Ford Motor Company. He began by leading the development of the Global Product Development System (GPDS).
He then served the last nine years as Director of Global Body and SBU Engineering and Tooling operations, where he and his team contributed to the company’s historic, product-led revitalization under then-CEO Alan Mulally.
Prior to Ford, Jim served as Vice President of Operations at Troy Design and Manufacturing (TDM), a tier-one global automotive supplier of engineering services, prototype tools, and low to medium-volume production parts and subassemblies.
Jim holds a Ph.D. in Engineering from the University of Michigan, where his original research into Product Development won two Shingo Prizes for Research Excellence. In addition, he co-authored (with Professor Jeffrey Liker) the award-winning books The Toyota Product Development System (2006) and Designing the Future (2018).
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We’ll dive into his incredible journey, from his time at Ford, where he led the development of their global product system, to his work at Rivian, helping to shape the future of electric vehicles. Jim shares valuable lessons learned along the way, especially around integrating lean principles into product and process development. We also talk about how embracing risk and learning from mistakes can fuel innovation.
Questions, Notes, and Highlights:
- Lean Origin Story: What’s your lean origin story, and how did you get introduced to lean thinking?
- Product Development vs. Production: Can you explain the difference between product development and production systems?
- Rivian Involvement: How and when did you get involved with Rivian, and what drew you to the company?
- Challenges at Rivian: What were the major challenges and opportunities as Rivian evolved from concept to production?
- Recruiting for Rivian: How did you recruit talent for Rivian, and what was the mix of automotive and non-automotive experience?
- Rivian’s Product Strategy: How did Rivian’s product strategy differ from other electric vehicle manufacturers like Tesla?
- Culture Development: How did Rivian focus on building its own culture and operating system from the ground up?
- Learning from Mistakes: How did Rivian’s culture embrace learning from mistakes, and how was that risk tolerance cultivated?
- Ford and Alan Mulally’s Leadership: How did Alan Mulally’s leadership at Ford influence your thinking on surfacing and solving problems?
- Board Involvement: What has your experience been like as a board member at Adrian Steel, and how does it differ from your previous roles?
- LEI Learning Groups: Can you tell us about the LEI Product and Process Development Learning Group and how companies collaborate and learn together?
- Designing the Future: What’s the central message of your book Designing the Future, and who is the target audience?
- Agile and Lean Integration: How are you integrating agile and lean practices, especially in product and software development?
Key Topics:
- Jim’s introduction to lean via The Machine That Changed the World.
- Differences between lean product development and lean production systems.
- Jim’s role at Rivian and the company’s approach to electric vehicle manufacturing.
- Rivian’s unique culture and the importance of building the “Rivian Way.”
- Challenges in launching new vehicles and managing diverse teams.
- Importance of learning from failure and embracing risk at Rivian.
- Lessons from Alan Mulally’s leadership style at Ford.
- Jim’s board experience at Adrian Steel and how it differs from operational leadership.
- Collaborative learning through LEI’s Product and Process Development Learning Group.
- The integration of agile and lean principles for better hardware-software development alignment.
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Episode Summary
The Evolution and Insights of Lean Product and Process Development: Reflections with Jim Morgan
Introduction to Jim Morgan
Jim Morgan’s extensive career in the automotive industry showcases the intersection of lean principles and product development across various eminent institutions. Jim currently serves as a senior advisor at the Lean Enterprise Institute and is a board member at Adrian Steel. His rich professional journey includes notable roles such as the Chief Operating Officer at Rivian and a significant tenure at Ford Motor Company, where he contributed to groundbreaking advancements in product development.
Jim Morgan’s Lean Origin Story
Jim’s introduction to lean principles began with reading The Machine That Changed the World, which sparked his interest in the Toyota Production System (TPS). This led him to graduate school, where he engaged with some of the prominent lean thinkers like Jeff Leiker and John Shook. His focus shifted towards studying the Toyota Product Development System, uncovering the symbiotic relationship between product design and manufacturing efficiencies. This research laid the foundation for Lean Product and Process Development (LPPD), a principle that has guided Jim throughout his career.
The Importance of Integrating Design and Manufacturing
Lean Product and Process Development emphasizes the significance of incorporating manufacturing insights early in the product design phase. According to Jim, this integration ensures the creation of products that are not only innovative but also feasible for consistent manufacturing, thereby adding value to the customer. Engaging various stakeholders, including logistics and services, from the onset assists in crafting a product that aligns with consumer expectations while maintaining high-quality standards.
Design for Manufacturability and Customer Value
The failure of the Pontiac Aztec serves as a stark reminder of the delicate balance required between innovative design and manufacturability. Despite its eventual “uglification” due to cost and manufacturing constraints, the original design concept was much more appealing. The challenge lies in preserving the designer’s vision while ensuring the product can be manufactured efficiently. By involving cross-functional teams early in the development process, organizations can create products that resonate with consumers without compromising on manufacturability.
Evolution of Product Development at Ford and Toyota
The Strategic Shift at Ford
During his tenure at Ford, Jim played a pivotal role in the company’s product-led revitalization under CEO Alan Mulally. This period was marked by a strategic move towards developing globally competitive products that aligned with market demands. Ford’s approach to understanding customer needs and integrating them into the product development process set a new standard within the automotive industry.
Toyota’s Customer-Centric Approach
Toyota’s emphasis on understanding and responding to customer needs under Akio Toyoda’s leadership exemplifies the evolution of lean principles. Toyota’s agile response to market dynamics, including its focus on hybrid vehicles over BEVs based on customer preferences, highlights their adeptness at aligning product development with consumer expectations.
The Rivian Experience: Innovating in the Electric Vehicle Market
Rivian’s Market Entry Strategy
Rivian, under the leadership of founder RJ Scaringe, marked its entry into the electric vehicle (EV) market with a unique focus on adventure-oriented SUVs and pickup trucks, contrasting Tesla’s emphasis on sedans and crossovers. Jim joined Rivian, contributing significantly to transitioning from innovative concepts to manufacturable vehicles, such as the R1S and R1T, utilizing an old Mitsubishi plant in Normal, Illinois as their manufacturing base.
Recruiting and Building a Diverse Team
Jim’s strategy at Rivian involved assembling a diverse team from various prestigious companies like Tesla, Toyota, Apple, and McLaren. This blend of expertise brought innovative ideas and practices into the company’s fabric. The high level of energy and mission-driven approach of Rivian’s team played a crucial role in overcoming the challenges of setting up new manufacturing processes and producing high-performance vehicles that cater to both environmental concerns and consumer demands.
Conclusion
Jim Morgan’s journey through the automotive industry, highlighted by his lean development philosophy, offers valuable insights into how integrating cross-functional teams early in the product development process can lead to innovative and manufacturable products that meet customer expectations. From his impactful work at Ford to his significant contributions at Rivian, Jim exemplifies how lean principles can drive success in creating market-responsive, high-quality products.
The Rivian-Amazon Collaboration: Crafting the Future of Delivery Vehicles
As Jim Morgan noted, the partnership with Amazon represented a prime opportunity to apply core lean principles by deeply understanding the customer’s needs. The objective wasn’t merely to electrify Amazon’s delivery fleet, but to create a solution that exceeded existing capabilities.
Insight-Driven Development
The team spent significant time shadowing delivery drivers and warehouse workers to gather firsthand insights into their daily challenges and needs. This hands-on approach unveiled critical pain points and opportunities for innovation.
- Ergonomic enhancements: Simplifying the loading and unloading process.
- Driver comfort: Enhancing the driver’s experience for long shifts.
- Efficiency in design: Streamlining the vehicle to maximize delivery efficiency.
These insights directly influenced the design and functionality of the electric delivery trucks. The result was not just an electrified version of an existing vehicle but a fundamentally improved delivery system.
Prototyping and Feedback Loop
Jim highlighted the importance of rapid prototyping and immediate feedback to fine-tune the product. The engineers were able to quickly implement changes and gather direct feedback from drivers and warehouse staff.
- Mock-ups: Early-stage prototypes were used to visualize and test new features.
- Iterative feedback: Regular input sessions ensured the final product met practical needs.
Differentiation through Collaboration
The focus on these user-centric enhancements helped Rivian create a differentiated product that stood out not just in terms of technology but in usability and functionality.
Building the Rivian Culture: Learning from the Best, Creating Something New
Diverse Expertise and Unified Vision
Rivian assembled a stellar team from some of the industry’s most innovative companies, including Tesla, Toyota, Apple, and McLaren. However, this diversity in backgrounds also posed a challenge: creating a unified Rivian way of doing things.
Creating the Rivian Way
Instead of relying on the practices from their previous employers, Rivian’s team focused on first principles to create their own unique processes and culture.
- Learning from diversity: Integrating best practices from multiple sources.
- First-principle thinking: Understanding the fundamental reasons behind each strategy.
- Avoiding legacy constraints: Emphasizing innovation over tradition.
By doing so, they were able to harness the strengths of each team member while avoiding the potential pitfalls of conflicting methodologies.
Embracing Risk and Innovation
Rivian’s culture emphasized the importance of risk-taking and experimentation. Driven by RJ Scaringe’s leadership, the company fostered an environment where failure was seen as a step toward success rather than a setback.
- Risk tolerance: Encouraging bold experimentation.
- Continuous learning: Using failures as valuable lessons for improvement.
- Iterative development: Rapidly testing and refining new ideas.
This approach not only accelerated innovation but also created a dynamic, resilient team that could adapt to changing conditions and challenges.
Problem Solving and Continuous Improvement
The culture at Rivian mirrored lean principles by focusing on solving problems efficiently and preventing their recurrence.
- Exposure of issues: Encouraging transparency and timely exposure of problems.
- Collaborative problem-solving: Leveraging diverse expertise to find solutions.
- Moving forward: Ensuring problems were addressed promptly and didn’t resurface.
This methodology facilitated not just the quick resolution of current challenges but also the preemptive identification and mitigation of potential future issues.
The LEI Product and Process Development Learning Group
Co-Development and Collaboration
After “retiring,” Jim Morgan was invited by Jim Womack and John Shook to start a product development initiative at the Lean Enterprise Institute (LEI). Together with initial partners GE Appliances and Herman Miller, they co-developed a model focused on shared learning and collaboration.
- Partnership model: Combining coaching with mutual learning between companies.
- No competitors: Ensuring open, honest sharing without competitive conflicts.
- Regular meetings: Companies met a few times a year to share progress and learnings.
Expanding the Network
This model proved so successful that it expanded to include companies from diverse industries, fostering a community committed to lean principles and continuous improvement.
- Peer learning: Companies hosted each other and provided feedback on real-world projects.
- Cross-industry insights: Learning from different sectors to drive innovation.
- Sustained relationships: Many original partners remain engaged, demonstrating the value of long-term collaboration.
Embracing Lean Principles Across Sectors
Continuous Learning and Adaptation
Jim’s experience underscores the importance of continuously learning and adapting lean principles to new environments. Whether it’s the R&D labs at Toyota or the assembly lines at Rivian, the core idea remains the same: iterative improvement driven by feedback and experimentation.
The Role of Humility in Innovation
A touch of humor and humility can go a long way in normalizing the challenges that come with innovation. Jim’s light-hearted yet earnest approach at Ford, Rivian, and now at LEI, illustrates that understanding and leveraging collective strengths while acknowledging limitations is key to creating successful, innovative products.
Bridging the Gap: From Principles to Action
Diagnostic-Driven Customization
Jim’s philosophy of understanding a company’s unique context before prescribing solutions mirrors a fundamental medical principle: diagnosing before prescribing. This bespoke approach ensures that the transformative lean principles are not just applied in a cookie-cutter manner but are customized to address specific needs and challenges of each organization. This diagnostic-first method is rooted in understanding the distinctive operating environments and crafting tailored strategies that align with the company’s current state.
- Customized Solutions: Developing plans tailored to the specific challenges and goals of each company.
- Initial Analysis: Conducting thorough diagnostics to understand root issues and potential areas for improvement.
- Iterative Feedback: Continuously refining strategies based on ongoing feedback and observed outcomes.
Learning from Diverse Industries
Jim highlights the value of cross-industry learning, noting that lean principles have been successfully adapted in sectors as diverse as healthcare, automotive, and aerospace. This cross-pollination of ideas not only enriches the understanding of lean practices but also demonstrates their universal applicability.
- Healthcare Innovations: Application of product development principles in clinical process improvements at Michigan Medicine.
- Cross-Industry Adaptations: Learning and sharing insights across various sectors to drive innovation and operational excellence.
- Continuous Improvement: Integrating feedback and iterative learning to refine and enhance processes continuously.
Integration of Hardware and Software Development
One of the contemporary challenges in product development is integrating hardware and software development processes. As Jim notes, the rapid advancement in software technology requires a harmonized approach to create cohesive, high-quality products.
- Clock Speed Challenges: Aligning the development cycles of hardware and software to ensure seamless integration.
- Agile Practices: Incorporating agile methodologies to enhance the flexibility and responsiveness of the development process.
- Collaborative Development: Engaging both hardware and software experts from the outset to foster a unified development strategy.
Jim’s Contributions Beyond Rivian
Board Membership and Influence
Jim’s experience on the board of Adrian Steel exemplifies another facet of his multifaceted career. Transitioning from an operating executive to a board member allows Jim to leverage his extensive knowledge and influence strategic decisions without being entrenched in daily operations.
- Strategic Oversight: Providing high-level guidance and strategic direction to help shape the company’s future.
- Cultural Integration: Ensuring the company’s values and culture align with its growth and innovation goals.
- Innovation and Engineering Focus: Supporting the company’s evolution toward a more engineering-driven and innovative organization.
Encouraging Patient-Centered Innovations
Jim’s involvement with Michigan Medicine’s patient advisory board underscores his commitment to enhancing patient experiences through lean principles. His firsthand experiences as a cancer survivor fuel his passion for systemic improvements in healthcare.
- Patient Engagement: Actively involving patients in the development and refinement of clinical processes.
- Holistic Improvement: Addressing communication gaps and process inefficiencies to create a better patient journey.
- Sustainable Change: Implementing continuous feedback loops to ensure enduring improvements in patient care.
Future Prospects and Continuous Learning
Bridging Agile and Lean Principles
As Jim continues to explore the integration of lean and agile principles, he collaborates with experts from both fields. This convergence aims to create a robust framework that leverages the strengths of each methodology to drive innovation and efficiency.
- Collaborative Research: Working with pioneers in agile and lean methodologies to synthesize best practices.
- Practical Implementation: Applying theoretical insights into real-world applications to enhance product development processes.
- Future Endeavors: Continuously evolving and adapting these integrated practices to meet the changing demands of industries.
Reflecting on Further Opportunities
Jim’s journey reflects a relentless pursuit of excellence through learning and adapting. His varied experiences and roles highlight the importance of staying agile and open to new ideas to drive continuous improvement and innovation.
- Leadership Lessons: Learning from diverse roles and experiences to improve strategic decision-making and operational efficiency.
- Community Building: Fostering a culture of collaboration and shared learning within and across industries.
- Future Discussions: Anticipating new challenges and opportunities to further refine and expand the impact of lean principles.
Stay tuned for more insights on leveraging lean principles across industries, integrating hardware and software development processes, and adopting a diagnostic-driven approach to drive organizational success. Continuing to blend agile and lean methodologies will undoubtedly yield novel, effective strategies for innovation and process improvement.
Future Prospects and Continuous Learning (Continued)
Strengthening Collaborations with the Agile Community
Building on his already impressive work with agile and lean methodologies, Jim is focusing on strengthening collaborations within the agile community. By continually fostering these connections, Jim aims to create a more robust and integrated approach to innovation and efficiency.
- Broadened Community: Bringing new voices into the conversation from diverse backgrounds such as Fabrice and Katherine.
- Design Brief Collective: Utilizing design briefs to facilitate deeper collaboration and knowledge sharing.
- Shared Contributions: Enabling a platform where various contributors can share their insights and drive collective progress.
Collaboration with MIT’s Center for Manufacturing Performance
Jim’s team is in the preliminary stages of building a collaboration with Ben Armstrong at MIT’s Center for Manufacturing Performance. This collaboration represents an exciting opportunity to contribute to the burgeoning manufacturing renaissance in the United States.
- Common Ground Exploration: Identifying synergies between Jim’s work and the initiatives at MIT.
- Joint Projects: Developing collaborative projects aimed at enhancing manufacturing performance.
- Comprehensive Capability Development: Addressing all aspects that contribute to great manufacturing, from design and engineering to toolmaking and fixture building.
Enhancing Product and Process Development Capabilities
As part of the collaboration with MIT, there is a strong focus on improving product and process development capabilities. This comprehensive approach ensures that every facet of manufacturing is optimized for better performance and innovation.
- Engineering Innovations: Leveraging advanced engineering techniques to improve product designs.
- Tool and Fixture Building: Focusing on the often-overlooked elements of manufacturing that are critical to success.
- Renaissance in Manufacturing: Contributing to the broader effort to revitalize the manufacturing sector in the U.S.
Engaging with the Lean Enterprise Institute (LEI)
Jim continues to engage with the Lean Enterprise Institute (LEI), a crucial platform for fostering learning and sharing best practices within the lean community. His participation in LEI events highlights his commitment to continuous learning and collaboration.
- Event Participation: Actively contributing to LEI events to share knowledge and learn from peers.
- Cross-Industry Learning: Utilizing LEI as a conduit for learning from different industries and adapting those lessons.
- Knowledge Dissemination: Ensuring that the insights and strategies developed are shared widely for broader application.
Incorporating New Learnings and Perspectives
Jim’s openness to new ideas and expertise from various individuals like Fabrice and Katherine exemplifies his commitment to incorporating diverse perspectives into his work. This approach enriches the dialogue around lean and agile practices and drives collective progress.
- Diverse Insights: Welcoming contributions from a range of experts to deepen the understanding of lean and agile methodologies.
- Continuous Improvement: Applying new insights to refine processes and enhance outcomes continuously.
- Holistic Approaches: Integrating various perspectives to create well-rounded, effective strategies.
Anticipating Future Industry Challenges
As industries continue to evolve, Jim is proactive in anticipating and addressing future challenges. By staying ahead of trends and integrating innovative solutions, he ensures that his strategies remain relevant and impactful.
Stay tuned for more insights on leveraging lean principles across industries, integrating hardware and software development processes, and adopting a diagnostic-driven approach to drive organizational success. Continuing to blend agile and lean methodologies will undoubtedly yield novel, effective strategies for innovation and process improvement.
Automated Transcript (Not Guaranteed to be Defect Free):
Mark Graban:
Hi, welcome to Lean Blog Interviews. I’m your host, Mark Graban. Our guest today is Jim Morgan. He is a returning guest. It’s been a while–he was here in Episode 100, about 14 years ago in 2011. But it’s great to reconnect here. Jim is a Senior Advisor at the Lean Enterprise Institute, a board member at Adrian Steel, and he’s also been the Chief Operating Officer at Rivian, a pretty high-profile electric vehicle manufacturer. I see their pickup trucks and SUVs out on the road even more often as time goes on. Before that, Jim spent a little over ten years at Ford Motor Company, where he began by leading the development of the global product development system. Jim, welcome back to the show. How are you doing?
Jim Morgan:
I’m doing great, Mark, and thanks for inviting me. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. It’s been too long since we’ve had a chance to catch up.
Mark Graban:
Yeah, but I’m glad we can do that now. I encourage people to check out Episode 100 at leanblog.org/109. That conversation was a deep dive into the idea of a product development system and how that’s different from a production system. Jim, you’ve done a lot of interesting things since then. Let’s catch up. But first, I don’t think I asked you this before–what’s your lean origin story?
Jim Morgan:
That’s a great question. It’s been a long time. My first exposure, like many people, was reading The Machine That Changed the World. Shortly after that, I decided to go back to graduate school after working in the industry for a while. That’s where I ran into Jeff Liker, John Shook, Mike Rother, Jim Womack, and all the “lean crazies” at the time. This was the mid to late 1990s.
At first, I was interested in researching the Toyota Production System, but it was actually John Shook who suggested I look further upstream–at Toyota’s product development process and how it enabled their manufacturing system. That led to a three-year study on Toyota’s product development process, and that’s how I started this Lean Product and Process Development (LPPD) journey that I’ve been on for many years now.
Mark Graban:
So LPPD–Lean Product and Process Development. Does that tie into concepts like design for manufacturing and design for assembly, integrating design and production more effectively?
Jim Morgan:
For sure. That’s a big part of it. One of the key principles is that it’s a team sport. It’s about engaging the entire enterprise in product development, including manufacturing, services, logistics–everyone. When you get all stakeholders involved right from the start, you create a big advantage. But it all begins with understanding your customer and how the entire team can contribute to delivering value to that customer.
Mark Graban:
You were at Ford for a long time. My dad worked at GM for 40 years as an electrical engineer, though not in the factories–more on product development and service engineering. One vehicle that comes up a lot in discussions is the Pontiac Aztek, often considered one of the ugliest cars. My dad would always remind me that the original concepts looked much better, but as Bob Lutz–who’s been on this podcast before–would say, the “bean counters” got involved, and things changed during production. How does that happen? There’s always a risk that a product doesn’t make it from concept to production as intended, right?
Jim Morgan:
Yeah, the Aztek wasn’t my favorite vehicle either. But your dad’s right–the design did look better early on. That’s one of the key lessons in effective product development: you have to make something manufacturable, but you also need to maintain a high degree of fidelity to the designer’s vision. That’s the challenge. You can create a very boring product that’s easy to manufacture, but if it’s not appealing to the customer, what’s the point?
Mark Graban:
Toyota’s been known for making reliable but sometimes “boring” designs that are well-manufactured. When Akio Toyoda became CEO, it seemed like he pushed for more appealing designs, beyond just the reliability and cost factors. It feels like you can do both–make something reliable and visually appealing.
Jim Morgan:
Absolutely, and I think that reflects Toyota’s evolution in understanding their customer. For a long time, they made exactly what their customers wanted–reliable, high-quality vehicles. But as customer tastes changed, Akio responded by guiding the company toward more exciting designs. Toyota has always done an excellent job of listening to their customers.
Mark Graban:
Speaking of understanding customers and evolving, let’s talk about Rivian. How did you get involved with the company, and what attracted you to it?
Jim Morgan:
I met RJ Scaringe, Rivian’s founder, when he was finishing up graduate school at MIT. He told me he wanted to start an auto company, and my first question was, “Why?”–given the challenges and low returns. But he stuck with it, and we stayed in touch. After I left Ford, he invited me to help them transition from concepts to actual vehicles. At the time, Rivian had the R1T and R1S in development, and they had just acquired an old Mitsubishi plant in Normal, Illinois. It was an exciting challenge.
Mark Graban:
How did you go about recruiting talent for Rivian? Was it a mix of people from automotive and non-automotive backgrounds?
Jim Morgan:
Yes, it was a mix. I recruited some of my old team members, but we also brought in people from Tesla, Toyota, Apple, and McLaren. The diversity of backgrounds was both a strength and a challenge, but the energy and excitement at Rivian were incredible. People were on a mission to electrify vehicles, both for performance and environmental reasons.
Mark Graban:
Rivian’s product strategy also stands out–they focused on trucks and SUVs when most EV companies were doing sedans and crossovers. What was the thinking behind that?
Jim Morgan:
That was RJ’s vision. He saw an opportunity to combine adventure with sustainability, targeting the truck and SUV market. It was a smart move because there weren’t many electric options in that space at the time.
Mark Graban:
Let’s talk about culture at Rivian. You mentioned recruiting from diverse backgrounds–Tesla, Toyota, Apple. How did you go about building a unique culture and operating system?
Jim Morgan:
That was one of the biggest challenges. We had people with different ways of doing things–Tesla’s way, Toyota’s way, Apple’s way. But we wanted to create the “Rivian way.” We encouraged people to share ideas based on first principles, not just where they worked before. We aimed to learn from all those perspectives but ultimately build our own culture.
Mark Graban:
How did Rivian’s culture embrace learning from mistakes? Was there an intentional focus on risk tolerance?
Jim Morgan:
Yes, RJ was great about embracing risk. It allowed us to experiment, and while not every experiment worked, we always learned from them. Rivian became a place where we embraced risks, took chances, and learned quickly. That was freeing and allowed for more innovation.
Mark Graban:
At Ford, under Alan Mulally’s leadership, there was a famous moment when he asked, “If everything’s green, why are we in the red?” How did that experience at Ford shape your thinking about surfacing and solving problems?
Jim Morgan:
A big lesson from Alan was that it’s okay to have problems, but it’s not okay to hide them or let them fester. At Rivian, we adopted a similar mindset: “It’s okay to be red; it’s not okay to stay red.” We encouraged people to raise problems so we could solve them together.
That’s a great mindset. So, speaking of raising problems and solving them, I imagine there were a lot of challenges in launching Rivian’s vehicles. One thing I’ve heard is the idea of “go slow to go fast” when it comes to production ramp-up. How did Rivian find the right balance between moving fast and maintaining quality?
Jim Morgan:
Yeah, that’s always the balancing act, right? You want to increase speed to market, but you don’t want to sacrifice quality in the process. At Rivian, we focused on being very intentional with each step, building on what we learned and making sure that we didn’t cut corners. It’s about finding that balance where you’re moving quickly but not rushing to the point of making avoidable mistakes.
Mark Graban:
It sounds a lot like the iterative learning we talk about in continuous improvement–testing hypotheses, running experiments, and adjusting along the way.
Jim Morgan:
Exactly. That’s a big part of lean product development–running experiments, learning from them, and adjusting as you go. That’s why we use those iterative cycles. The key is to start small, test things on a smaller scale, and then scale up once you’re confident that it works.
Mark Graban:
Shifting gears a bit–let’s talk about your current work with the Lean Enterprise Institute. You’ve been involved in the Product and Process Development Learning Group there. Can you explain what that group does and how it helps companies?
Jim Morgan:
Sure. The LEI Product and Process Development Learning Group is something I’ve been very passionate about. It started with the idea of bringing companies together to learn from each other, in addition to learning from us as coaches. We initially partnered with companies like GE Appliances and Herman Miller, and the goal was to create a collaborative environment where these companies could share their experiences, successes, and challenges. They visit each other’s sites, help each other solve problems, and engage in open, honest conversations about what’s working and what’s not. The whole point is to help companies improve their product development processes by learning from others in a non-competitive, supportive environment.
Mark Graban:
That sounds similar to the kind of collaboration I’ve seen in the healthcare space with networks like the Healthcare Value Network, where organizations visit each other and learn by sharing. What’s been the most surprising or rewarding part of working with these companies?
Jim Morgan:
What’s been most rewarding is seeing how these companies apply lean product development principles in their own unique ways. Every industry is different, but the underlying principles–like engaging stakeholders early and focusing on customer value–are universal. Watching companies take these principles and creatively apply them to their own contexts has been incredibly rewarding. I’ve learned just as much from them as they’ve learned from me.
Mark Graban:
That’s great. Now, I want to switch gears to your book Designing the Future. Can you give us a quick summary of the main message of the book and who it’s aimed at?
Jim Morgan:
Sure. Designing the Future is about helping organizations understand that when they’re doing product development, they’re literally designing their future. The book emphasizes how critical it is to get the product development process right because it shapes so much of a company’s success going forward. Jeff Liker and I wrote it to show that lean product development principles work across a variety of industries, not just automotive. We share examples from companies in sectors like aerospace, healthcare, and consumer goods, showing how they’ve applied these principles successfully.
Mark Graban:
Are software companies applying these lean product development principles too? It seems like there are parallels between software development and what we’ve traditionally called product development.
Jim Morgan:
Yes, absolutely. Software development is a big part of product development today, especially in industries like automotive, where software drives so much of the customer experience. At Rivian, for example, software was a key part of the vehicles. We’re now working with agile experts and software companies to find better ways to integrate lean principles into the software development process. There’s a lot of alignment between agile and lean, and we’re exploring how to bring those two worlds together more effectively.
Mark Graban:
That integration between hardware and software development seems like a huge challenge, especially with the different clock speeds, as you mentioned earlier. How are you working to address that?
Jim Morgan:
Yeah, the clock speed difference is one of the biggest challenges. Hardware development typically moves at a different pace than software development, and trying to synchronize those processes can be difficult. We’ve been working with some of the original signers of the Agile Manifesto, as well as experts in extreme programming, to figure out how to better integrate these processes. The goal is to find ways to combine the speed and flexibility of agile software development with the structure and discipline of lean hardware development.
Mark Graban:
That’s fascinating. I’ll be sure to include a link to LEI’s Design Brief, where people can read more about the work you’re doing in that area. One more thing I wanted to ask about–what’s it been like serving on the board of Adrian Steel? How does that role differ from your operational roles at Ford or Rivian?
Jim Morgan:
Being on the board of Adrian Steel has been a huge learning experience for me. It’s a very different role compared to being in the day-to-day operations. As a board member, you have to take a more strategic, big-picture view. You’re there to guide and support the company’s leadership team, rather than being directly involved in executing the work. Adrian Steel has embraced lean thinking for many years, so it’s been a natural fit for me. It’s been a rewarding experience helping them navigate the next phase of their growth as they evolve into a more engineering-driven, innovation-focused company.
Mark Graban:
That’s great to hear. I imagine that shift toward more innovation-driven work is exciting for you, given your background.
Jim Morgan:
Absolutely. It’s been a great experience so far, and I’m learning a lot about how to influence from a board-level perspective, which is quite different from being in an executive role.
Mark Graban:
Well, Jim, this has been a fantastic conversation. What’s next for you? What can we expect to talk about in a future episode?
Jim Morgan:
I’ve got a few exciting things coming up. We’re going to continue expanding our collaboration with the agile community, working on how to better integrate lean and agile practices. I’m also working with Ben Armstrong at MIT’s Center for Manufacturing Performance on some new initiatives focused on reviving American manufacturing, which I think will be really impactful. I look forward to sharing more about that in the future.
Mark Graban:
That sounds great! I’m looking forward to hearing more about those projects. Thanks again for being on the podcast, Jim. It’s been a pleasure catching up with you.
Jim Morgan:
Thank you, Mark. It’s been a great conversation, and I’m looking forward to staying in touch.
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